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[Original] Liu Xingyu: Talk about Palestinian land and refugees again.
Author: meteor shower 72 posted in the cat's eye to see people Katie network. net
Liu Xingyu: Re-discussion on Palestinian Land and Refugees (I)
Author: Liu Xingyu 72 (I just found this article when I was searching online. The main content of this article is my real-time work when I participate in online discussion, which was compiled by others and published in Canaan Forum)
Lin's fallacy on Palestinian-Israeli land issue
-Talk about the rationality of land division between Palestine and Israel again.
Mr Lin Yun Si has written a masterpiece about the Middle East, and I have sent a document to discuss with him. He almost always answers questions, but he always avoids talking about territorial and population issues, so I think he has acquiesced in my doubts. Below I put forward my own views on this issue:
Mr. Lin is a little anti-Japanese and anti-American (of course not anti-Japanese with angry youths). He said in this long article:
Arabs living in Palestine account for 68% of the total population, and the land owned by Arabs accounts for 94% of the total area of Palestine. However, General Assembly resolution 18 1 stipulates that the total area of Palestine should be
57% is allocated to Jews, who account for one third of the population, and Arabs, who account for two thirds of the population, get only 43% of the land. Why give nearly 60% of the land to Jews, who account for only one third of the population? There is no explanation in the General Assembly resolution. However, from any point of view, General Assembly resolution 18 1 also lacks fairness.
-1. First of all, the fact of resolution 18 1 is:1947165438+1October 29th, the second session of the United Nations General Assembly was approved by 33 votes,/kloc-0.
10 abstained, and the resolution on the partition of Palestine was adopted, that is, United Nations resolution 18 1. The resolution stipulates that Britain will end its mandated rule in Palestine and withdraw its troops before 1 August 9481; Two months later, two countries were established on the land of Palestine, namely, the Arab country and the Jewish country. According to the blueprint of partition resolution, the territory of Arab countries can reach 1 1203 square kilometers, accounting for about 43% of the total area of Palestine at that time. The population is 725,000 Arabs and 65,438+0,000 Jews. Jewish land 14942 square kilometers, accounting for about 57% of the total area of Palestine, and the population is mainly Arabs.
There are 497,000 people and 598,000 Jews.
As can be seen from the above, the territory of the Jewish State accounts for 57% and the population accounts for 59%. 8%( 109。 50,000), the territory of the State of Palestine accounts for 43%, and the population also accounts for 40. 1%。 It is not said that Jews occupy more land, because the land of the Jewish state is used by Jews and Palestinians, just as 654.38+200,000 Palestinians live in Israel and Jews now own land in Israel. On the issue of land division, some people think that there are still millions of wandering Jews in the world who need to be resettled.
Lin said that the land owned by Arabs accounts for 94% of the total area of Palestine, which is a big fallacy. We know that a country's land mainly has two parts.
One is state-owned (or owned by the royal family) and the other is private (China is a state-owned collective). State-owned shares are generally the vast majority. The same is true of Palestine. The land owned by the British Trusteeship Authority accounts for most of Palestine, so it is absolutely impossible for Arabs to own 94% of the land in Palestine. The fact is that most Arabs who own land in Palestinian areas are not local Arabs in Palestine, but rich Arabs living in Damascus and Cairo. Arabs in Palestinian areas (hereinafter referred to as Palestinians) own very little land. At that time, the amount of land owned by Jews (mostly purchased from Arabs in Syria, Jordan, Egypt and other places) was 2-3 times that of local Arabs (later Palestinians) (the specific memory is unclear). It's easy to understand. Jews have brought capital, technology and management experience from Europe and become more bosses, while local Arabs are poor, have more work and have less land. Many Arabs who come to work from neighboring Arab countries mainly rely on Jews. At that time, Arabs were concentrated in traditionally developed places, while in remote places, a large number of Arabs immigrated to cultivate after the Jews came (because the land price in remote places was cheap). This is the real reason why the land allocated to the Jewish State accounts for 57% and there are 470,000 Arabs.
-4. Lin's statement that the land of the Palestinian state is fragmented and barren is even more absurd. If you look at the map of 1948, you will know that the Jewish state and the Palestinian state are not continuous and complete, but roughly divided into two pieces, like a cross. The land in the fragmented Palestinian areas was formed later, so it belongs to their Arab brothers. Besides, is it barren? In fact, the water-rich areas in the north are owned by the Palestinian state, and the West Bank, known as the granary, is owned by the Palestinian state, which also has coastline and ports. On the contrary, the water resources of the Jewish State (Israel) are much less than those of the Palestinian State, so Israel's seawater desalination technology is very high (forced out), and the desert Gobi Desert in the south was allocated to the Jewish State (Israel), so Israel's desert agriculture is world-famous (also forced out), and China has received a lot of technical support. You have never heard of the lack of water in Palestine or the existence of a large desert Gobi desert. The West Bank of Jordan River is the most fertile area there, and it is also the most developed area for industry and commerce. They have all returned to the Palestinian state. On the contrary, many prosperous towns with high land prices in Israel were originally desolate areas. So Lin's argument is untenable.
2 Talk about Palestinian land and refugees again.
5. The Palestinian refugee problem is also a problem that is often misunderstood by China readers. Readers in China generally believe that Israel has created Palestinian refugees, and even that Israeli Jews have driven away Palestinians, occupied Palestinian land and property, and created Palestinian refugees. However, there is a strange phenomenon. On the official website of the Palestinian self-government government, the front page of the Palestinian refugee issue is marked prominently: Palestinian refugees are mainly caused by the wrong policies of Arab countries. First of all, there are some Palestinians expelled by Jewish extremist groups, but that is a minority. Some of them fled the war voluntarily.
Most Palestinians were lured away by their Arab brothers. The Arab allies who invaded Israel told the Palestinians to leave the asylum temporarily for 3-5 days to half a month, and all the land and property were yours. As a result, these Palestinians can never go back, because some of their places are occupied by Israel and some are divided up by their Arab brothers. Therefore, these Palestinians have been refugees for more than half a century. It is generally estimated that the number of refugees is between 500,000 and 800,000. Since then, they and their descendants have relied on the international community to eat and drink Lazar (the current population is about 3 million). However, in the Middle East war, the number of Jewish refugees was roughly the same (about 700,000), and all their land and property were confiscated by the Arab regime. However, Israel and other countries accepted them without asking the United Nations for a penny. Now they and their descendants are active on all fronts, making their own contributions to themselves and mankind.
Teacher Lin is a good online writer, and this article is also very valuable. I once discussed with him, and he basically answered my other questions. However, no matter how I ask him again and again, he always avoids answering this question, and I will take him as a default.
The land and population issues in resolution 18 1 were often debated in China forum, which was caused by our media's long-term taboo on this issue. Now it is necessary to clarify it.
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Reader Wen Chaocui's comments after reading:
Thanks to the "Choice" netizens for providing such detailed information, which gave me a comprehensive historical understanding of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict for the first time.
I also thank the netizens of "Meteor Shower 72" for their supplementary information.
Generally speaking, it is difficult to figure out who is right and who is wrong about the feud between Palestine and Israel. In modern times, Britain defeated Osman after World War I and gained some colonies, including Palestine. Because of various interests, it quickly supported Zionism, and the United States has always supported it. The independence movement of British and French colonies in the Middle East was completed during and (mainly) after World War II. At this time, there were 500,000 Jews living in Palestine. When the colony became independent, did the suzerain have the right to draw boundaries? At least have the right to coordinate the demarcation of national boundaries, which is evidenced in the Middle East, India and Pakistan. There is also a United Nations resolution 18 1. Although it may not be reasonable, the process of Israel's founding is basically in line with international law. Legality and irrationality have finally led to decades of conflict. Moreover, the conflict was used by western powers, the Soviet Union and some Arab countries, which became more complicated. In recent years, the Arab-Israeli conflict has basically subsided, and the Palestinian authorities have also accepted the United Nations resolution 18 1, and the peaceful settlement of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has seen the dawn. I hope to achieve lasting peace at an early date.
Meteor shower 72 added: Palestinian Arabs don't weigh themselves, resulting in land loss.
When China readers talk about Palestinian land, several concepts need to be clarified:
1 Of course, the land in the Palestinian area now belongs to the Palestinians, which is a matter of course, just as the Indian Ocean does not belong to India. In fact, there were no Palestinians before 1948, only Arabs, Jews, Bedouins and so on lived in that land. There is no Palestinian state in history, and the so-called Palestinians were widely recognized only after the founding of Israel.
2,
3. The traditional Palestinian area is much larger than the current State of Israel and Palestinian autonomous regions, and it includes a large area of outer Jordan, which was divided by neighboring Arab countries in the 1920s and 1930s. Therefore, some extreme Jews claim that the current Palestinian refugees should live there, because the State of Israel has actually obtained only about 28% of all the land in the Palestinian area according to the resolution (the specific memory is unclear), and a very small number of Palestinian extremists believe that they should establish a big Palestinian state, including not only Israel, but also the carved-up parts.
Comments on Lyx760 after reading:
Mr. Zorn: The reason why I accept that Jews own more land than Arabs do in meteor showers is because I have seen it in several places before. At that time, the Bedouins and Arabs in Palestine were still in the nomadic stage and had no concept of land ownership. Anyway, everyone just drives the livestock to the grass. On the other hand, Jews are an agricultural nation with a profound concept of private property. As soon as they arrived, they bought land from the local tribal chiefs, and the locals laughed at the stupidity of the Jews. If they have livestock, they will not be able to catch up with them. They gave them money for nothing, but they drove them up anyway. After the Jews bought the land, they fenced it off. Very few at first, which does not affect the walking and grazing of livestock. Relations between the two peoples are still very good. But later, more and more land was enclosed, and livestock often huddled around the fence, so the Arabs became angry and pulled down the fence, which triggered a violent conflict between the two communities. This is a cultural conflict, not a mob.
3 Talk about Palestinian land and refugees again.
I think this statement is in line with common sense and reasonable, and generally tends to agree. The story of meteor shower verifies this statement. Arabs don't buy land, and of course there is less private land than Jews. These landless Arabs may be employed by Jews to engage in business or service activities, and their customers are Jewish farmers. Of course, they live in a Jewish community, so when the Jewish state is established, it will of course be incorporated into the Jewish state. Why do you want to drive them out of their homes? In proportion, Arabs are almost equal to Jews, and democratic elections are not necessarily discriminated against. Arabs are not minorities, but many equal peoples. In other words, as a democratic country, Israel is the same country for two peoples, not a single nation. As for today's result, it should be said that it is the result of refusing to accept democratic elections. After all, human beings can only develop in the direction of advanced civilization and cannot go backwards.
Imagine if the Palestinian areas were merged into one country. Can you imagine handing it over to Hamas, Arafat and others? What are the consequences? And if it is managed like Israel, is it acceptable to the whole world? You may say that Sharon is a bad person and can't lead, but he can be re-elected at most once. Now it seems that he may step down because of corruption. And the system is the key, that is, under such a system, bad people can only do good things, not bad things. At that time, Israeli President Bei Jing was the originator of terrorists, and it was his massacre of Arab civilians that triggered the influx of refugees and caused today's problems. But when he became president, he won the Nobel Peace Prize.
I don't agree with many of Mr. Wang's views, such as agreeing with Wang Jingwei's traitor behavior. But I think his article is rigorous and reasonable, and the factual information is as true as possible, which is worth reading and gaining something. Therefore, the main information of the main post should be true and have the value of serious thinking. However, there are some factual errors in the main post, which may be caused by his prejudice (normal prejudice is shared by everyone, not malicious), so we should treat it rationally. If he said that only China did not sign the Paris Peace Conference Agreement, it would represent the views of the United States and Britain, and it would be wrong. The Paris Convention was signed by two countries, and the other happened to be the United States. He walked out in protest (China didn't). In the words of the President of the United States at that time, the Paris Peace Conference was an imperialist "spoiling" meeting. He opposed turning the land of the defeated Ottoman Empire into the leadership of the victorious country, and even more opposed turning the land of the victorious country (China) into the ownership of other victorious countries. On the issue of Shandong's rights and interests, China has repeatedly asked the United States for support, and the United States has indeed supported it. Perhaps this is due to Mr. Lin's prejudice against America. Therefore, Lin later said that the United States stopped its military assistance to Arab countries during the war of the founding of Israel, but at the same time banned the sale of weapons to Israel. This was actually partial to Arab countries, because the supply of weapons to Arab countries came from Britain and had existed for a long time, while Israel had no weapons suppliers or weapons. Later, Israel got a batch of weapons from the Soviet Union, which kept the war going. Such mistakes should still exist.
Meteor shower 72 supplement:
Arabs have no concept of land ownership. Anyway, it is to drive the livestock to the grass. On the other hand, Jews are an agricultural nation with a profound concept of private property. As soon as they arrived, they bought land from the local tribal chiefs, and the locals laughed at the stupidity of the Jews. If they have livestock, they will not be able to catch up with them. They gave them money for nothing, but they drove them up anyway.
You're absolutely right. The claim that 94% of Palestinian land belongs to Palestinians is their own statement. Because Arabs think my grandfather is herding sheep here, this land is mine. My father has built a house here for 50 years, so this foundation is ours. They have no idea that they are stealing other people's means of production and his house.
It's an illegal building. People don't care, but once they get serious, they are kicked out.
-Speaking of Palestinian land, we should understand the land registration system of the Ottoman Empire in the middle of19th century. To be fair, many lands left by Palestinian ancestors were lost in the chaos nearly 100 years ago, when they were ruled by Muslim brothers. Therefore, local Palestinian Arabs do own less land than Jews.
Jeremiah's comments after reading:
One-third and two-thirds of the issues were controversial at the Canaan Forum last summer. No matter how good Mr. Lin is, can you see the problem at a glance? Don't representatives of dozens of United Nations Member States know nothing about this?
On Palestinian land and refugees (Ⅱ);
*.*.*.* 2008- 12-3 1 15: 10:2 1
Whispering friend information, blog search, reply, all the speech mailboxes under this topic have points! Integral upgrade, quickly extract the second layer.
Author: meteor shower 72 posted in the cat's eye to see people Katie network. net
On Palestinian land and refugees (Ⅱ);
Author: Liu Xingyu 72 (I just found this article when I was searching online. The main content of this article is my real-time work when I participate in online discussion, which was compiled by others and published in Canaan Forum)
The return of Palestinian refugees
Recently, some people clamored for the return of "Palestinian refugees". Who are the Palestine refugees? According to statistics, 730,000 Arabs fled the Palestinian areas in the First Middle East War, and they became the earliest "Palestinian refugees" in the world. Together with the 300,000-400,000 Arabs who fled in the Third Middle East War, it is more than 654.38+00,000.
4 Talk about Palestinian land and refugees again.
In fact, 1 ten thousand refugees are not particularly high in the long river of history. Statistics show that since the end of the Second World War in the 20th century, there have been 654.38+35 million refugees, who are victims of war conflicts. But the problem of Palestinian refugees is the only one that cannot be solved, and the more people are repatriated. Today, the number of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries is as high as 3.7 million per day. The reason for this terrible increase is that according to the national charter adopted by the Palestinian National Construction Committee in 1968, Palestinians are Arabs who settled in Palestine before 1967. After 1947, if their parents are Palestinians, they must be Palestinians. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, among the more than 700,000 refugees in the First Middle East War, only 40-45% were settlers with real estate, and the rest were "vagrants" who went to work in Palestinian areas and nomadic tribes who never knew what settlement was! ! ! In addition, at least half of them didn't even see the shadow of an Israeli soldier, and whether the other half were driven out by the Jews has to be counted separately.
For example, according to 1947- 1949, when the battle between Arabs and Jews for Haifa failed, although the Jewish commander Moses Cameli did not want to expel Arabs, he only ordered a curfew in the Arab region, but the Arab representatives refused to sign the surrender document and asked the Arab residents to leave Haifa. Although Jewish Mayor Levy came forward to claim that Arabs are welcome to stay, there are still 70,000 Arabs. So we came to such a strange conclusion. A young man, whose hometown is in Iraq, went to work in Gaza in 1947, and war broke out in the name of war. Then he heard that Jews killed Arabs (which later proved not to be the case) and fled to Egypt. After that, he became a refugee, and according to Egyptian regulations, the activities of refugees were strictly restricted and they were not allowed to leave the country at will, so he stayed in Egypt, married a local Egyptian woman and gave birth to five children and five sons. According to Arab countries, these people are "Palestinian refugees" who cannot return because Jews invaded their homes. They all have the right to return to Palestine and claim compensation from Israel for the property they left behind that year! !
There is nothing strange in the world.
After seeing the emergence of the refugee problem, there are generally only two ways to solve the refugee problem: 1. When the host country and the refugees have the same beliefs, cultures and social structures, the refugees will generally be absorbed into their nationals, and then naturally they will no longer be refugees; 2. When the host country cannot absorb and digest refugees for various reasons (political scruples, ethnic differences, beliefs), refugees will stay for a long time and become an increasingly difficult problem. So far, we haven't seen a case of refugees being expelled on a large scale in the world and returning to their original place of residence decades later. For example, after World War II, Lithuania, Estonia and other places set off a wave of large-scale expulsion of Germans, and thousands of refugees poured into Germany, which was already in ruins, but so far we have never heard of the "German refugee problem"; For another example, after partition of india, millions of Muslims and Hindus became refugees, but so far we have not heard of any "Indian refugee problem" or "Pakistani refugee problem".
In fact, the first Middle East war not only produced Arab refugees. According to statistics, at least 800,000 Jews (from the Middle East War and the Encyclopedia Britannica) were expelled from the places where they also lived for many years-Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon and so on. In Baghdad, in the past, the streets were full of Jewish shops, and there was one Jew in every five residents. Today, there is no sign of Jewish life or existence!
Professor Zhang Ping wrote in the article "Photographs of Iraqi Jews and the Solution of the Israeli-Palestinian Refugee Problem":
It turned out that when120,000 Jews fled Iraq, not only all their property was confiscated, but also their personal belongings were prohibited. All Thalia's family photo albums were forcibly seized, and the living memories of generations of the whole family were lost in the country where the two rivers civilization originated. I used to know that the property of Iraqi Jews was confiscated by the Iraqi government, but I never dreamed that I would never let go of my photos.
Since 1948, the situation of Jewish refugees and Palestinian refugees has been strikingly similar. The number of people on both sides is roughly the same, ranging from 600 thousand to 800 thousand. Both sides fled their ancestral homes for thousands of years. Both sides lost the wealth and industry accumulated for generations when they fled. Even on the reasons for fleeing, Israel and Palestine are strikingly similar: both sides claim that the other fled voluntarily, and both claim that their refugees were forcibly expelled by the other side.
5 Talk about Palestinian land and refugees again.
The biggest difference between the two sides lies in their attitudes towards their respective refugees. Israel absorbs its own refugees in obscurity and tries to integrate them into the Israeli society, which was originally dominated by Western Jews. It did not ask the international community for a penny, nor did it regard solving its own refugee problem as a prerequisite for peace. On the other hand, most Arab countries, except Jordan, keep Palestinian refugees in refugee camps, prohibit them from integrating into the local society, deliberately create and expand the problem of Palestinian refugees, and let the international community bear the life of refugees. At the same time, the so-called right of return of Palestinian refugees has always been the main obstacle to the realization of Israeli-Palestinian peace.
The large-scale population replacement caused by redrawing between countries is nothing new, nor is it a unique problem between Israel and Palestine. Before and after Greece's independence, there was a large-scale population replacement between Greece and Turkey and between Greece and Bulgaria. The same problem happened in India and Pakistan when India became independent. All these countries subsequently signed relevant agreements, and none of them demanded "return" or population replacement. Anyone with a little sense will understand that the essence of this kind of refugee flight is not only to escape the war, but also to refuse to belong to the country where they live after the political map changes. Forcing these hostile people to return to their original residence is actually creating new conflicts, and the essence of insisting on this negotiation condition is to refuse to achieve peace. (The above is taken from Professor Zhang Ping's article)
According to the statistics of 65,438+0,995, there are more than 654,380+0 Arab citizens in Israel. They did not blindly listen to the rumors that Jews ate people and killed people, but stayed. They can keep the cultural characteristics of their communities, participate in various political activities and buy real estate (but there are unfounded rumors that Israel prohibits Arab citizens from buying land). Which side is engaged in "ethnic cleansing"? Israel declared it the homeland of the Jews and resettled all these refugees. Therefore, it can be said that Israel has never had a refugee problem, but this does not mean that Israel has never had refugees.
Let's review some practices of the Arab world towards Palestinian refugees who are also our compatriots:
1948 When the United Nations adopted a resolution to provide humanitarian assistance to Palestinian refugees, Arab countries refused to pay a penny;
Except Jordan, no Arab country recognizes that Palestinian refugees can have citizenship;
Since the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime, thousands of Palestinian refugees who used to live in low-cost apartments provided by the Baghdad government have been expelled by landlords, and another 200 families have been told by landlords to move out immediately after their children take summer vacation at the end of this month.
In Saudi Arabia, where 500,000 Palestinians live, oil-rich Saudi Arabia passed a decree in June 2004 allowing all people who have lived in Saudi Arabia for more than 65,438+00 years to apply for citizenship-except Palestinians.
In particular, the Arab League put forward the guiding principle of not allowing Arab countries to grant Palestinian citizenship in order to "avoid the loss of their identity and protect their right to return".
So, is it not clear who is using Palestinian refugees to gain chips at the negotiating table and who has created the suffering of Palestinian refugees as a means to defraud donations internationally? Is it not clear who created the Palestinian refugees?
Professor Zhang Ping's comments: What is slightly insufficient in this paper is that the discussion on the land issue between Israel and Palestine did not deeply discuss the specific land system in Ottoman Turkey era, that is, almost all the land was state-owned and only a small amount of land was available for foreigners to buy and sell. The land system reform during the British mandate was not successful. Israel's land law has a lot of Ottoman content so far, and even the name of the Land Bureau is directly in Turkish. Therefore, the statement that 1947 Palestine owns more than 90% of Palestinian land is legally untenable.